Mr. and Mrs Fennell Go to Beantown

The spring marathon season didn’t pan out like I thought. I hoped to be running the Boston Marathon on Monday but it’s not going to happen. Greg put together a great plan but some of my parts just couldn't withstand the abuse. I don’t much like getting old. On Monday I will be with Shev in Boston cheering her on. She will no doubt finish the race with personal best on a very tough course. She’s done the work and has a vast pool of discipline. Now she needs to execute her strategy. I am expecting she will come across the finish line in under 3:25. Just prior to my tendon issues, I asked to just run with her at her pace. I was surprised by how hard she worked me.

Shev got up early Saturday (as usual) and did an easy 40 minute run while I got the last of my much needed beauty rest before we left town. We were flying out of Bloomington at 9:30. I fixed my last great latte for the next few days and we headed out. Not being one for details, I waited till the middle of breakfast and 10 minutes before we went out the door to get on the computer and input my cell phone number for tracking Shevs progress. After all the trouble, I forgot my cell phone on my way out the door.

Checking in at the ticket counter I ran into Matt Eckberg. We did a few long runs together this spring. He’s strong and fast and running really well. I would not be surprised if he turns in a 2:50 or better on Monday. As tough as he is, his little brothers are even faster. The brother he’s staying with has a personal best something wicked like a 2:27. He’s going to run as well. Rich and Peg Geibelhausen booked a room with us at the Jewel of Newbury. I am excited for the prospect of staying at the Jewel, a nineteenth century Victorian in a quaint part of downtown Boston in the history Newbury area. Peg was looking forward to looking around and perhaps finding a few items. From the printout Peg showed me in Chicago I’ll have plenty of coffee shops to enjoy. I am really looking forward to getting to know them both a whole lot more. Peg I am coming to realize has a bit of a competitive streak. Rich shares my love of great beer. It’s going to be a seriously fun weekend.

Rich is injury free has been running quite well. He has a bit of arthritis in his knee that’s he’s accepted with a certain grace. Price of admission he jokes. I expect he will have a strong performance. He’s hoping to run a 3:50-4:00 race. Break a leg Rich!!! I am enjoying my role on the side this year. Being a spectator is kind of nice. I can spend attention drinking in the the lifestyle aspects of the Boston Marathon experience.

Not having a good day? How bout you try being more negative! - By Glenn Latimer

(Glenn Latimer tells Rob what it takes to be faster than Schroff!)

Rob

 

Greg asked me to comment - see his post below

 

Depending on the marathon race course, even splits or negative splits are the way to go in a marathon - otherwise you feel you are "hanging on" and trying to survive/get through the last third of the race.

 

As Blair and Greg have correctly identified, it is training and simulation which allows one to do this type of racing.  I always preach "have your wheels under you at 30k"  - i.e. you can still control your pace when the race comes to the tough part.

 

Liken it to driving your car - you either control the accelerator pedal, or the car controls you.  Most people running a marathon do not have control of the accelerator pedal, and therefore the race is controlling them.

 

Elites train to run different paces, make injections of pace, and recover.  Most elites and sub-elites know exactly what pace they are on by experience and by feel.  There is no reason why everyone can't get the feel for pace, whatever speed they intend to run.

 

Age brings wisdom (maybe?) - when I ran another marathon when I reached 50, I ran the first 10M at a controlled pace, the next 10M at about 15 seconds per mile faster, and the last 10k was the fastest per mile pace of all. Wish I had practiced that when I was racing with Greg!!

 

Elites run within themselves through the first half of the race. Then the race really starts between 25k and 30k.  The fittest, well-trained guys run even or negative splits usually. 

 

The guys in Chicago last weekend got a crazy idea about 15k and ran a couple of miles at 4:36 and 4:38. As predicted it buried most of them, and lost the winner the chance of a course record. Too much too soon.

 

Next April in London we are planning a first half of the race in 62:00  - that is not too fast if you can run 59:00 for a half marathon.  Extrapolate accordingly to whichever level you run at, as the same principles apply.

 

Consult with the experts like Greg and Blair on how to do this sort of training simulation.  Greg correctly identifies that most people in training don't simulate, and therein lies the key. Put yourself under stress to learn to simulate and "control" of the pace.  Remember this is complex because you need to be able to control the pace (maintain or pick it up) just at the time when you body is "changing tanks."   Consult with the experts in Greg and Blair - they can help you.

 

Hope these comments help.

 

Regards

 

Glenn

 

Greg and Blair Weigh-In on Negative Splits

Rob,

 

Negative splits...what a question!  I've been trying to figure that one out for over twenty years without an answer but I do have some thoughts about why the elites can do it and we can't. First we don't practice it enough. Everyone is afraid to run fast in training, then run faster in training. We do a lot of GP running, but at maybe too short of distances and with too many rest intervals.  It may be best to alternate doing a 3 miler at goal pace followed immediately by a 3 miler at faster than goal pace.  Then recover to your resting pulse rate and repeat again. This may be a better way of doing a 12 mile run than a continouse 12 miler where we start slow and try to pick it up throughout with just the last 1/3 at MGP.

 

We also don't race at distances long enough to practice negative splits for a marathon.  Today we race too many 5K's and don't have the oportunity to RACE (I MEAN RACE !!!) a 10 miler, 20K, 1/2 or even a 30K.  Without these races, it's impossible to figure out a goal pace should be let alone determine negative split paces.  The charts out there for interpolating what you can run a marathon in rarely work unless you have 10 milers through 30k races to plug in.  For instance, using my 5K to 10K PR's showed I could have run 2:32:00.   I ran 2:23:00.  But by plugging in my best 10 miler or my best 1/2 marathon time theprediction table more accurately showed I could run a 2:21:00.  This is much closer to reality but i never did that either. In other words we either need to race more at longer distances, or do more test runs to determine our ideal paces for the marathon.   One problem runers make is to set up a 10 to 16 week training cycle yet not adjust our goal paces (either up or down) for where we are in the cycle.  Test runs of 15 to 16 miles could do this as long as you duplicate the lead up days and you do your test on the same loop each time with weather being the only variable.

 

Looking at elite performances and compairing how fast these runners can race a 1/2 vs what they can run for their marathons we see they are much closer than non-elites.  When they do the first half at 2 to 3 mins slower than their PR's they are to a lesser degree resting at closer to thier training pace. Then they race the second half at close to their 1/2 marathon race pace!  We most often do it the oposite way because we don't know how fast we can actualy race the 1st half in before we are forced to drop back to training pace.  If you look at splits in marathons for most of us, the first thing that happens before we crash is that we slow down to the training pace of our long runs.  Then we crash.  If we knew the correct pace using a series of test runs or longer races (not past Marathon pace) we could possibly use this as an opening pace then speed up the 2nd half.  This would be a closer mimic to what the elites  do.

 

I did test runs without knowing it because I ran all my long runs on the same course, Boredom, adding the 4 mile Grand View loop to get to 20 miles.  So I guess I knew where I was in my cycle.  I was always able to race 30'sec faster per mile in the marathon than my 20 milers on Boredom and my 2:23 pace was my normal pace.  It was usually around 5:20 for my 12 milers on Boredom and around 5:50 for my 20 milers. I can't say this works for everyone but it's been the same for a lot of runners I worked with.  I'm not saying to use Boredom for your long runs exclusively, but I do believe in running somewhere that gives you regular test runs.

 

I'm going to quit now because I need to do my workout.  I think better on the move so maybe I will come up with more thoughts.  You  know me I like to talk about training the OLD WAY!!

 

Greg White

Rob:

When I swam competitively, distance was my specialty. We constantly worked on even pacing or negative splitting our races. The coaches felt by doing this one would conserve carbohydrates for later in the race, delay lactic acid build-up or reaching (or crossing) your anaerobic threshold too early in the race, and that you would be more efficient overall. You had to learn not to start out too hard/fast and settle in a pace you could maintain for the race, maintaining dead even splits or coming back a little faster than you went out.

Running is the same way. Look at the world records in the distance events. They were all done with even or negative splits. The front half is never more than 2-3% off the back half (e.g., out in 1:32, and back in 1:28 or vice versa for a 3 hour race). The hardest thing is to hold back in the early part of a race. You need to be cautious about not starting out too fast (Danimal) and cause the body to produce more lactic acid than it can handle. Once that reaches a critical point...the runner/swimmer will slow down or stop....it's the only way to clear it...

Greg and I worked and worked with Peggy Joseph on this type of pacing...wanting her to try and run even splits in the 15K at Steamboat. She was one who always went out way too fast regardless of distance, and tried to keep from slowing down toward the end and being passed. She hadn't won the 15K to this point in time. We worked with her a full year to where she could run even splits....not going out too fast...running somewhat conservatively early on....letting people go....only to keep her pace even and reeling in these runners as they slowed later in the race. She won Steamboat that year by running the second half of the 15k slightly faster than the first.

You need to establish a goal and your training should be geared toward reaching that goal. Run against the clock, not other runners. This will require you to hold back and follow your plan. Train at the pace you want to race at....tempo runs are great for this, or repeat miles done with very short recovery periods. Using a Garmin will help monitor pace for the miles and make sure you're on track.

I read one article on negative splits where it does state that it's very difficult to run even splits in a marathon, so it's usually better to err slightly to the conservative side than to be a little overly aggressive. Not by much...like an average of 5-10sec/mile over the first half...which is 1-2% for most runners. Another states that if you've accurately pegged your race goal, then it doesn't matter if your splits are positive or negative as long as they are no more than 2-3% apart...that close is essentially even splits. Terrain, weather, etc....all play a part in your plan as well.....

Running and swimming even/negative splits takes time, practice, and patience to the point where it becomes second nature. I practiced this in both my swimming and running (even in my 5K's) and felt that it made me faster overall in both disciplines. It was always nice speeding up in the second half when others were slowing down...it would give me such a mental boost passing people....

Hope this helps, Blair

Over 40, under 3? Determine the pace!

I am 43 years old.  A johnny come lately, I've been attempting to run a sub 3 hour marathon for a couple of years now.  I am making progress although it's been a journey of many dead end paths.  In Chicago, I was very close and feel had I had cooler temps a 1% increase in pace could have been realistic.  That would have allowed me to obtain my goal.  Regardless, the fact remains I didn't do it. Now, my friends who also ran the race chose what they deemed to be the "correct" pace to run the race. Some ran into unexpected difficulties. Some in aticipation, chose to fight another day. Here are our splits for each 5k segment (click on the graph to enlarge):



I started thinking about why we determine our paces in the first place.  The three hour marathon is a lofty goal for many of my running friends.  Some have smashed through this objective while others struggle with me.  Despite our varied talents and fitness, the goal remains one of the most sought after for my group.   Matt Fitzgerald wrote an interesting artical about marathon pacing where he speaks of the difficulty of determining an accurate pace given all the uncertainties of the marathon.  He writes:

"Can we even assume that even pacing is the best marathon pacing strategy? 

The fact that most of the fastest men’s and women’s marathon times ever recorded involved negative splits would seem to be strong evidence that negative splitting, or at least even pacing, is the optimal marathon pacing strategy. One of the world’s top experts on pacing strategies, Ross Tucker, Ph.D., finds this logical irrefutable. “I'm a big believer that there is such a thing as ‘natural selection’ when it comes to performance,” he wrote in an email. “In other words, if the very best athlete runs a negative split, then that is most likely the optimal way [for everyone] to go about it. Because given that hundreds of world-class athletes are racing, time will eventually ensure that the optimal strategy is settled upon. If a positive split were better, I have no doubt that all the great athletes would be going out and doing it, simply because it works.” 

The big problem I have here is the anectdotal evidence does not support even splits for the non-elite athlete.  There are two problems with the supposistion that it's best, first does the non-elite runner really know what the correct pace should be and is the pace for them at which a negative split becomes possible as fast for the entire marathon as the pace they might pick were they to run a positive split?

Fitzgerald continues....

"However, just because even pacing seems to be the optimal pacing strategy for the world’s best runners doesn’t mean it’s automatically the best pacing strategy for you and me. There’s a large and possibly crucial difference in the fitness levels that elite and non-elite runners bring to the marathon event. It’s plausible to me that the more modest a runner’s fitness level is, the more likely it is that he will achieve his fastest time by running somewhat aggressively in the first half and then “hanging on” in the second half. Put another way, it’s plausible to me that the smaller the difference between the most comfortable pace a runner could sustain for 26.2 miles and the fastest pace he could sustain for the same distance, the more likely it is that a slightly positive pacing pattern would produce the best overall result. "

From talking with even our very best runners seems to support this argument.  Do you agree?  Please weigh in on this if you have a moment?

Chicago Marathon 08 Race Report

I headed up to Chicago on Saturday morning.  The family and I got to the expo at about 1:00.  Adam White (thanks for the donkey shirt!) had a booth for Running Central at the expo and that was pretty cool.  He really needs to get that web site point of sale set up for his store.  When you go out of your home town folks will want to order via the net.  I'd love to order on-line from him as well.  Anyways... The guys planned to all meet up before the marathon just to say “hey” and the expo at McCormick Place worked out well for everyone getting together.  I ended up hooking up with Schroff, Krause, Danimal, Matt, Jared, Robby and Lorne.   I probably spent more time than I should have walking around and talking but I was having a good time.  The BWS and his wife beat us all to the expo (a preminition of things to come) so they headed out to get to their room before I got there.  Too bad, I could have used some of his fastness essence!  After the expo, Shev drove me to the hotel and dropped me off.  She and the girls were staying with my niece at her place.  That was fine, I am not much fun the night before a marathon.  I really just want to get off my feet and chill.  Matt and Jared were planning on crashing in my room.  We all had dinner at Pizzano’s on State Street (2 blocks away). Dinner was excellent.   I chose the Pasta A “La” Dino which is a Bowtie shaped pasta sautéed in garlic and olive oil with sun dried tomatoes, shrimp and a sprinkle of parmesan cheese (a value at 15 bucks)!  It came in a HUGE bowl.  I only finished half (I could have horked it down but thought it unwise) and had a Newcastle on draft with water.  The wait was about 40 minutes but expected and we didn’t sweat it because we were off our feet.   Eat early or be prepared for long waits downtown.  Especially if you want pasta on marathon weekend!  After dinner they left me at the hotel and went out for a few adult beverages and to enjoy the Chicago scene.

The morning went really smooth.  Robby, who stayed with his uncle, met us in the room at about 6:30.  We were pretty much ready to go.  I ate a bowl of lucky charms because they are magically delicious (figured I could use a bit of that).   It was warm enough that I didn’t need any cold weather gear.  I was a bit concerned about the heat playing into the marathon.  I planned on going out really slowly knowing it would not be easy.  When the gun went off, I went out and looked down at my Garmin.  It was reading 7:45 actual pace but then it almost immediately read 6:40.  My first mile was 7:05.  Perfect.  By the middle of the 3^rd mile I could see the 3 hour pace guy and I just kept him in sight.  The pace felt very easy, almost boring.  Judging by how bad it got last year, I knew the feeling wouldn’t last long so I decided to enjoy the feeling until it left me.  By mile 6 I felt a bit weak but then it passed.  I was careful to hydrate at every stop and I took gels every 5 miles.  I hindsight I am very glad I did that. As I passed the 7 mile mark, I started looking for my family.  I asked my niece to make her sign stand out more this year (I comepletely missed her last year) so she wrote “Run Fatboy Run….Go Rob!”.   I saw it right away but tried to act like it wasn’t for me.  I need to thank Shev, my niece Candace and all my buds especially Matt Stevenson.  They kept me entertained during the morning.  Conditions were much warmer than I would have liked but WAY better than Chicago 07.     By the 11 mile mark it was becoming more work to stay with the group but not terrible.  I got a bit confused at the half when I came across and the clock was showing 1:34.  I was hoping to be no slower than 1:31 and was really worried about how hard I was working then I figured it out.  It kinda freaked me out until I heard one of the guys around me say he was right on time for his 3 hour goal.  In the end it didn’t matter, I didn’t have it in me.  However, I am encourage that the pace did seem much easier than it ever did before. I fell off my 3 hour pacing goal at the 30k (the lucky charms magic must have worn off) and I spent the better part of the next 2 miles chasing  a dude dressed up like Mini Mouse.  Wouldn’t that have been a great finishing photo!?!   I would definitely have to buy that one!  Matt worked with me for the last 4 miles (thanks so much) and so I finished the Chicago marathon on Sunday with a new PR 3:05:01.  I was pleased.  I really had to work to get in in that time and don’t think I had any more left to put out there.

Two of my friends really stood out, Scott Willi and Eric Bush.  They were on top of their game Sunday.  Eric ran a 2:33 winning the mens masters division (whoa)!  Scott accomplished his goal of running a sub 3 marathon (his first of many).  Great job guys.  Some of us had really tough days.  The weather definitely played a role.

 

Oh yeah and we had plenty-o-water this year!  Thanks Mr. Pinkowski!  Now I see I still need to improve upon my stamina in order to reach my goal of running a sub 3 hour marathon.  After all the world record is very much sub 3!   My next 26.2 will be at Boston in April.  Shev is running the Marine Corps Marathon in DC in two weeks.  After she quals (and she will) we will run it together (well at least on the same course together).  I am going to pursue my goal of achieving a personal best on a very challenging course.  In order to do that I am going to have to make some more improvements to my running. 

 

Now you can have your shoe and eat it too!

Hitoshi Mimura, 59, is a former marathon runner who became a master craftsman for Asics, the Japanese sporting goods manufacturer.

Later this month, Ryan Hall and Deena Kastor of the United States plan to begin testing the latest design from the distance-running equivalent of Manolo Blahnik. Their shoemaker is a Japanese master craftsman whose soles are renowned not for space-age gels or air bladders but for the gripping properties of rice husks.
The husks, which are ground and imbedded in the rubber soles of racing flats, are designed to absorb water and to provide up to 10 percent better traction along the 26.2-mile marathon course at the Beijing Olympics in August. (Read the story in it's entirety in the NY Times by clicking on the headline).

My wife says I have more running shoes than I really need but hey what can I say? I am a sucker for a groovy shoe. Adam, can I get some soy sauce for these?

Hanson Coaching Does Things A Little Different

I received a packet from Hanson’s Coaching Services. I thought you’d find it interesting. It is the training packet from their Advanced Marathon clinic. I don’t know how familiar you are with their training philosophy. I was taken aback by the fact they don’t have a planned run longer than 16 miles for most runners?!? Obviously, they have a good reputation, but this is very different from say Pfitzinger’s plan. It does however encompase many of the ideas Daniels advocates. Here is what the Hanson booklet has to say:

“Many programs focus mainly on completing runs of up to 20-22 miles 3-5 times throughout the training segment. However, the weekly mileage is maybe 40-50 miles for the peak week. This means that as much as 50% of the mileage comes from 1 day, leaving 6 days to get the other half of the distance. According to Daniels, a long run should be no more than 25% (or less than 150 minutes) of a person’s weekly mileages. This is because physiologically you deplete energy stores enough to trigger responses to store more energy, cellular adaptations occur at optimal level, and longer than this may cause structural breakdown and over stress the body.”

Now, I am a bit confused by this because, I don’t know of any advanced marathon plan that peaks with only 50 miles. The workouts are pretty much standard fare:

Easy days
Long Runs
VO2max
Lactate Threshold
Tempo Runs
Running Economy

Like Daniels, they don’t advocate 400’s for VO2max workouts. They reason if you run faster than a 27 minute 5k you won't spend enough quality minutes in your targe training zone. It takes 2 minutes to reach VO2max and ideally the interval should be 3-6 minutes in length. They reserve 400 intervals for beginner runners with lower mileage and advocate 800’s as being more suited with 1600’s being the final goal.

Hanson Coaching offers a detailed table for paces that help the runner pace correctly. But for these examples, lets use a 2:30 marathoner that runs a 15:30 5k. During the first 9 weeks, Tuesdays are all about these speed workouts. Then Tuesday’s switch and become strength workouts. A strength workout consists of something like 6x1 mile at 5:30 pace w/ ¼ mile jog in between. Conversely, the 1600 Speed Workout would have been 4-6x1600 at 5:03 pace with 2:35 recovery jog.

Thursday’s are all about tempo runs at MGP. Sundays get more substance for long runs when they are training advanced athletes. For they can benefit from incorporating tempo (threshold) efforts in the long runs. They build pace runs up to 5-10 miles. They build slowly spacing the difficult effort long runs only every 3rd run.

Here is a link to their schedule: http://www.hansons-running.com/shop/pdf/advanced.pdf

I've been told that our own IVS runner, Charlie Hansen (sp) used this plan and went from say a PB of 3:15 to something in the neighborhood of a 2:56 marathon at Greenbay. Help me out if I got that one wrong. Now it's not faster than Schroff but I certainly would be happy with it.

I doubt this translates into anything meaningful for the elite guys who are trying to get under 2:20 but it might have merit for the 3:15 marathoner wanting to get down under 3 hours.

Advice from Coach Greg -- IVS

As I get VERY close indeed to the Chicago Marathon I am in the final phases of my training. Tonight (Thurs) I plan on 5-6 mile of running with 20 minutes of it at GMP. Friday is an easy recovery day. Saturday, I plan on conservatively racing the Zoo Run Run, Glen Oak Park in Peoria IL. It's a 5k. Sunday will be an 11 miler with 3 at pace.

And Coach Greg's advice for the 5k and the big day:

"... the 5K of Saturday should be as even as possible with a conservative 1st mile and pickup last mile look at 6:10's for 2 mile than push for whateveryou can get. In the marathon, remember to work off of 4 mile average splits. It’s best to pace off a sizeable chunk than to try to pace off each mile. The most important split is the 12-16 one. It is critical for you to be running your goal pace during this segment (or a bit faster). Don't wait till mile 22 to find your inner strength. At 22 you may feel too strong an urge to back off then it will be tough to get back on pace and to stay on pace. Remember to focus on the 12-16 mile split. I believe with what you ran at the IVS half you will be able to accomplish your objective. Your best chance will come if you average your splits each 4 miles. You will get there. Don't change thursdays workout that I sent. Run well on Sat."

The coach has spoken......